Newbies: think twice about using Swordfish for new projects.

JWinters · Post by **JWinters** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:23 pm

I'm almost certain that Swordfish is no longer officially supported. Moderators don't even bother to delete spam in this forum anymore.

Things were great when I first started using SF for simple projects... the SF community was growing and issues with the compiler/libraries were getting addresses in a timely manner. Now that I've built a business based around SF code, the compiler has basically been abandoned by its creator and I find myself in a bind. There are no cute 'workarounds' for the bugs I and others have been seeing with this compiler.

I once posted on this forum asking David for a version of Swordfish designed for 24F series PICs. I'm not sure if it is in the works or not, but abandoning the current compiler is not the way to instill confidence in your custom base. I for one, will not be buying a 24F Swordfish compiler if it is released. I'll do what I should have done 2 years ago... use a C compiler.

Raistlin · Post by **Raistlin** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:53 pm

As far as I know SF hasn't been abandoned , taking potshots doesn't help anyone.
I am sure Dave would make an announcement if he was not intending to continue development !
I myself have had to put some projects on the back burner for a couple of months to make ends meet , doesn't mean I have abandoned them.

RadioT · Post by **RadioT** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:54 am

Raistlin wrote:As far as I know SF hasn't been abandoned , taking potshots doesn't help anyone.
I am sure Dave would make an announcement if he was not intending to continue development !
I myself have had to put some projects on the back burner for a couple of months to make ends meet , doesn't mean I have abandoned them.

Weeelll...I understand what you say but the fact remains that his last post was almost 4 months ago. I haven't seen any other staff chime in, he must be the only one.

This compiler is the central tool in developing and maintaining my PIC-based product. My business has grown to the point where it's too risky to use an unsupported product and the problems I've seen make me (and my shareholders) nervous. Money isn't the issue here, I'll gladly pay for tech support. I've already put in a post asking for anyone who is an expert with SF for assistance (although there have been no takers).

I think SF was built as a serious product for professional use. Howver, when people that have been using the product for a long time have what seem to be unexplainable problems, there should be some sort of assistance from the manufacturer to help figure it out or fix it. No one is asking for free work here, I can speak for myself in saying I'll pay for that help. It would be cheaper than tasking programmers to spend 6 person-months converting it all to C and getting it debugged, at cost of about $40,000.

-Tom

Raistlin · Post by **Raistlin** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:54 pm

I think SF was built as a serious product for professional use. Howver, when people that have been using the product for a long time have what seem to be unexplainable problems, there should be some sort of assistance from the manufacturer to help figure it out or fix it. No one is asking for free work here, I can speak for myself in saying I'll pay for that help. It would be cheaper than tasking programmers to spend 6 person-months converting it all to C and getting it debugged, at cost of about $40,000.

I am pretty sure Dave is looking into the issues and that they will be sorted in due course as his time permits. I know for sure that SF is NOT abandoned.
Remember a compiler is a really complex piece of software there might be more work than people realise in correcting the 64K boundary issue I saw in another thread for example, could be that a chunk of the engine may need modifying or even completely rewriting.

I always think of compiler as a little akin to fixing a car. If the brakes are faulty its dead easy 10 mins to pop off the wheel and put on new pads. If the camshaft is out on the other-hand it might take a day to strip the engine replace the cam and set all the valves.

As for commenting on swapping to C , I am sure that even Hi-Tec (now officially owned by microchip as their top draw C compiler) has issues , hell every time there is a new PIC the silicon itself often has issues. Mchip have a HUGE budget and massive resources and still cant seem to get their MSSP's right. Dave at least is not beholden to microchip like Hi_Tec now is , support for all other micros Hi-Tec wrote compilers for has now been completely and officially dropped, imagine how all those poor buggers feel who depended on Hi_Tec for Atmels for example , they are officially stuffed.

RadioT · Post by **RadioT** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:03 pm

You are right. Hi-Tech does have problems. My custom manufacturer's engineering shop is on a first name basis with some of their staff!

But that's the point. When problems come up, they are dealt with.....yes, they do cost sometimes, but the manufacturer actively works on the solution and usually engages the customer.

-Tom

Francis · Post by **Francis** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:04 pm

Sometimes it does seem a bit quiet.
Maybe you should PM David rather than jumping the gun?

I really like SF, and it's a pity it wasn't marketed through Farnell, RS, Digikey and Mouser - that would pump the sales I'm sure.

But I don't think you should be so negative unless you have accurate info.

JWinters · Post by **JWinters** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:02 pm

Maybe you should PM David rather than jumping the gun?

From my point for view, I've been more than patient. Initially I just thought I was bad at writing code and I even avoided labeling the odd behavior of the compiler as 'bugs'. I didn't want new users being scared away by posts about compiler bugs that actually weren't. I also figured David wasn't addressing my issues because I wasn't able show code that produced the errors and he didn't want to waste his time chasing down my mistakes. I thought I would finally get some kind of response when I was able to produce code along with concrete examples of how the compiler was failing. Not so. By that time it had been months since he had made a post and the other compiler issues started piling up. Since I seemed to be the most vocal about these problems, I started getting PMs from other SF users with similar issues. I guess everyone was afraid to post somethings in the forum for fear of a backlash.

Collectively, we've tried PMs, emails and even phone calls. Never a response. We've been told by other employees that he's "in the office", but no one ever gets a call back.

I noticed a few spam posts got deleted yesterday and I was told that the forum listed him as online. Why wouldn't he respond to my post or at the very least delete it entirely? It would not take much to shut me up... just a simple "Hey guys, I'm sorry I've been unavailable lately. A few other things have come up that I've needed to address first, but I still plan on supporting Swordfish." would suffice. That is why there is an announcements section on this forum, right?

I'm not on a campaign to bring down Swordfish or David. He's obviously a brilliant developer. I really like the language and IDE. Ultimately, we all want to see Swordfish succeed. It's in all of our interest to get a compiler that works. I'm not asking for support of every new PIC that comes out of Microchip. I'd just like to get some sort of positive news regarding these issues.

Francis · Post by **Francis** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:00 pm

Oh, that doesn't sound good.
I see what you mean i.e. a quick little note is better than stoney silence.

Maybe he's gone mad and started selling oggboots instead?

Raistlin · Post by **Raistlin** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:56 pm

Lol no he is same , I have spoken too him (hence the spam going GY) i'd imagine he will get around to the issues and SF is deffo not abandoned

dmtulsa · Post by **dmtulsa** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:57 am

I have SF and PDS . As far as I can tell its the same group of people although different compiler authors but I'd guess they share lots of info. I have to say I use Proton PDS more just due to the fact that issues are solved or at least you see some progress. SF is more powerful ( for my coding style) but that's useless if you can't get to the end of a project due to some little something even if its the codes mistake. The support should be there and for PDS it is. It is really sad because SF has so much going for it.

Too bad they both can't combine to SFPDS and have the best of both worlds. People will say there too different but I beg to disagree. Look at PowerBasic and what they did with their Windows compiler. Gave the best of both worlds with stuff many time more complex than pic's. Yes I know, its apples and oranges

I guess my bottom line here is that I can count on Proton but have to put my faith in SF. For a hobbyist that's ok but if it's you food on the table........

Just my thoughts
Doug

gramo · Post by **gramo** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:42 pm

SF is a brilliantly designed product on the market, and has been adopted accordingly by the tech community.

If it's the ridiculously low pricing of SF that is holding things back, I for one would be more than happy to provide support.

I really hope that this lull has been the result of a Swordfish Pro version (name guess there - could be anything) that has been in the works for sometime now. (24F/dsPIC support).

Even if that was not the case, a quick hello from David would be good - nothing quite like that feeling of uncertainty.

Edit: I see that Steven has been made an alternative moderator for all forums - perhaps he's cleaning out the spam posts these days?

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:25 pm

Hello. To keep speculation down, I have been in touch with Dave over the last few days. He has now bumped me up to a moderator to help tackle spam, but he is alive... He is busy with work at the moment, but expects to be back in action before long. Do not worry that things have been quiet.

Francis · Post by **Francis** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:55 am

Thanks Steven.

gramo · Post by **gramo** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:01 am

Thanks Steve - that's comforting to know

He is busy with work at the moment, but expects to be back in action before long. Do not worry that things have been quiet.

Understandably so. I think that's all I needed

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:25 pm

Hi Guys, Just thought I'd throw my thoughts in if it's ok,

Swordfish has changed my life. It has connected me to the embedded world which was once a thing a bit out of my grasp. From my first flashing led code, to now, pretty much anything I can dream up, is now being a reality. For that I personally wish to thank David and the rest of the forum.

I've made all sorts of gadgets, from fume hood air flow display meters, Electric Bike Motor contollers, to LED shop signs, and I haven't even got around to buying the software yet. (sorry, shame on me).

I've been teaching a work colleague in another state from me on how to use SF, as he was still using the crappy old basic stamp bizo.

I can't speak highly enough of the compiler. I'm sorry to hear that a couple of you have run into problems, but to start this murmuring about SF being dumped and the like, is less than amusing. I think the fact that you are finding limits within the software is testimony to its greatness, probably because you have found it so easy and powerful to use that you have added things and driven you code far beyond what you may have started out with. It's unfortunate and must be a worry for you, that you are having problems with SF, otherwise to complain so much about Davids absence from the forum for a short time, makes me think you guys whingeing are a bit quick on the agro button.

Even if it did get shelved forever (preposterous), I would say its easily the most useful thing I've come across on the net, ever.

See Ya.

Newbies: think twice about using Swordfish for new projects.

Newbies: think twice about using Swordfish for new projects.

Swordfish gets 10 out of 10 from me